Remove core OSX apps?

I don’t think all core apps should be removed.

I think that obvious ones should go: iTunes is a nobrainer. However, there are other useful apps that people might not know about. I just found out about the DigitalColor Meter yesterday, which is basically a system-wide eyedropper tool.

Maybe a good way to approach it would be anything that’s in the Utilities folder can stay.

Yeah, I think it’s a great idea, we all know we all use these apps and the whole point why I signed up here is to find new non core apps. Maybe a seperate section just for core apps would be nice.

I think core apps should be included. It’s nice to see what’s available built-in, even if seasoned users already know about it.

I think core apps you get in every new version of OSX such as the Terminal or Safari should go. iLife apps, where bundled with new machines but not included when upgrading to new version of OSX should be kept because they are examples of apps a user would have to gout of his way to obtain. iusethis has two great uses. First, people can find apps to download that looks good. Second, they can make a list of apps they use. if their machine crashes and burns and they need to reinstall they can pull up their profile and download all their favorite apps that need to be downlaoded. Core apps that will already be there with a fresh OSX install are just gunking up the listing. Right now leaving them in is making a popularity contest out of things which frankly serves no useful purpose at all.

I think that the core apps should definitely stay. I mean, if we were talking about Windows here, I would say you don’t need to list things like Calculator, Media Player, etc, since most people hardly ever use them at all. But we’re talking here about Mac OS X, which (IMO) has some of the best built-in apps I’ve ever seen! What this means to me is that the core apps are right up there in the running as a choice for a main application for their respective purpose. I use iusethis mainly to see what is the best (aka most popular) choice for an application to perform a certain task. If programs like iPhoto, iTunes, etc. are removed, a user would have to assume that the next most popular photos app, music app, etc. is better than the core one. To Apple’s credit, this is often not the case!

I think you should really leave the core apps in the system, and if they’re not really worth having, they’ll be pushed down through natural selection on their own!

Just one more comment… Take iChat as an example. It’s good, but clearly not as popular as Adium as a chat client. Therefore it’s been pushed down so far, that you basically have to go through a few pages if you wanted to find it. I would suggest you let this happen with all the other core apps. If a program comes out which is better than iPhoto (for example) I would want to notice the change in the top list! :)

Leave them in. If someone isn’t using iTunes because they have a preferred app, they shouldn’t be voting for iTunes. Same goes for Finder. The point of the listing is to show, to some extent, relative preferences, so the Core Apps are indeed in competition with other stuff. And if someone doesn’t use a core app, they shouldn’t be voting for it. That’s feedback to Apple as to where the fluff is.

I don’t think they should be removed at all. They may be no-brainer apps, but they are still apps. As far as I have seen, they haven’t diluted the experience of finding new apps in any way by being there. (I’ve found at least a dozen new apps in the past 2 days alone that I’m playing with right now before I commit to using them.) If nothing else, I’d say including them is just a way of being thorough. Other sites such as VersionTracker have them included in their listings and it is not hurting them.

What exactly is the problem with the apps being on site? I just speculating here but is it because it screws up the Hot Apps list or something along those lines? If so, it would be just a matter of making a separate category that isn’t included when generating the Hot Apps list. I could understand if you made it so the no-brainer apps weren’t as prominent since they are so obvious.

My overall point though is that its better to cover all the bases and include all the core apps rather than risk missing one unknown core app in OS X that might be particularly useful.

Jaime

P.S. Doing a quick search, I found at least one core OS X app that is NOT included that I use constantly: Keychain Access. It is extremely useful to know and understand this app, and gives you another layer of security on your Mac when you know how to use it. (I’m going to add it now.)

OK, one more thing: I don’t think built-in apps should be able to qualify as “hot”.

I for one am amazed how many use (or don’t?) Finder. Some users simply don’t grasp Finder is an app. Alternatives via tags can be quite informative. Please leave them in place even if only for the amusement of reading (some of) the comments.

Core apps should stay.

To remove them makes a big assumption about the way people use iusethis; it assumes that people use it to list which apps they have installed, and if that were true of all users then fair enough remove the core apps because we know everyone has them.

Except we don’t. Is GraphicConverter a core app? It is on my machine but I know people who don’t have it. Is Comic Life a core app? It’s installed on my partner’s new MacBook but I don’t have a copy.

Personally I use the site to note which apps I use and find useful rather than just a list of apps I have installed.

Safari is a core app, but some people might only ever use Firefox and wouldn’t want to add it to their list, I use Safari regularly and would and have added it to my list.

Give people the option to choose how they use the site.

Hi Michael, hi Chris, I think this depends basically on how you’re planning iusethis.com to become.

If you plan to make it another versiontracker or macupdate clone, then feel free to remove the core apps, since you don’t need to know about their existence and download them.

If you’re planning to make iusethis.com a place to share comments, thoughts, suggestions to developers and monitor what the mac audience likes or dislikes, even the core apps against other third party replacements, well don’t.

Personally I find really useful the ability to share my thoughts and read other users comments on core apps.

I love core apps as much as the next man, but feel they would be better in their own seperate section, as to not clutter up the main site with apps that everyone has.

the core apps should stay…if only to act as a meter to compare the alternatives to. sometimes the comments can turn you on to something better, like iChat and Adium mentioned above….

Agree core apps need to stay. Great place to leave comments on these. Anyhow, don’t these differ by OS version? This will be a place for Mac users to come and think about whether or not they would like to upgrade.

They should stay because not every Mac owner uses iTunes or iDVD (etc). This also makes you wonder if applications like “Photo Booth” or “Front Row” should be listed or not due to their only core applications on certain machines.

It wouldn’t be a problem if those apps weren’t that great. Take Paint for example.. or windows media player. Maybe you should remove Finder ?

I think they should stay. It’d be interesting to see who actually uses the built in things on their system. While use, keeping Disk Utility in there might turn a few heads, it’d be great to see how many people (such as myself) use the Dictionary program on a regular bases.

Hard decision on that one. Some core apps really aren’t ones that you just use, but some are. I would venture to say they should remain listed.

The bigger problem I’m seeing is with non-OS X apps or plugins for cross-platform (namely Firefox) apps creeping into the listings here and there. I’ve noticed a number of them being deleted afterwards, and I imagine it’s just people getting a bit overzealous in their adding (that and there is no clear distinction that this is only for OS X apps - at the moment).

If you want to give a true reflection of what people use, core apps should stay in. As others have mentioned, it’s very interesting and informative to see where these apps stand within their category, e.g. iChat not being at the top. A user who is using a core app can then discover when a third party alternative is more popular.

I think they should stay but should be tagged as core or built-in or something. Same with widgets. And I’d liked to be able to browse non-core and non-widget apps. A reason to keep them is to be able to search for something like graphics and see all the built-in and 3rd party solutions in one list to compare them. Same with word-processor, I should see Pages and maybe even TextEdit.

i too think core apps should stay…sometimes i find useful information within the user comments on how they use a specific app.

The best situation would be a separate category for core OSX apps, so that they could still exist for comparison purposes with 3rd party apps, as people say, but so they wouldn’t hammer the hot apps and top apps pages. Also, that way they wouldn’t need site or download links, which are pretty much irrelevant for them. Barring that though, I say absolutely get rid of them. But you already knew that. ;)

Just another vote to leave core apps in. Most people’s “My apps” list just wouldn’t be complete if Finder, Safari, Terminal, or Mail were missing.

I agree with everybody who says keep them… why remove them, after all? They are woth keeping if for no other reason than the comments section…

The only reason that I would like to see them removed is that I’m having a hell of a time going through all 135 pages and counting.

I think the core apps should be kept. Maybe mark them as “core app” or something.

I think that the site will work best if you remove apps that DO NOT have third-party alternatives. Say for example: iTunes, if I see that a large number of people are using something else instead of the default, free app, then that says a lot about that app. On the other hand, if the core app is something that is not really challenged in the marketplace, say something like XCode, then maybe it is a bit silly to ask if people “use this” because no value is provided to the site users.

Depends on how you define core app! But in all seriousness, yeah I don’t think having stuff like Preview up here is neccesary.

I argued that for the sake of thoroughness alone we should keep all the core apps. I will amend that by saying there is one app that every mac users uses no matter what, and that one should be the only app that should not be listed: Finder.

It is the ONLY app that makes sense to remove from the listings because it’s like explorer.exe in Windows; without it, there is no Windows. Mac will run with or without apps like iTunes or Safari, but it won’t run without Finder. In that sense, Finder seems to be the only one that can understandbly be removed from the listings, since it will always be there.

No, do not remove the core apps. It’s a good check to see if Mac users are using the built in apps as opposed to seeking alternatives and in a small way may affect the quality of core apps if users seek alternatives in large scale… maybe…

I support tagging them as core apps and removing them from the hot list. Perhaps, you could have a setting that allows core apps to be (1) displayed, (2) displayed, but not “hot,” or (3) not displayed.

Absent that, I would trash them.

Yes, get rid of the core apps. I thought it was weird that they were included on here.

Yes, please dump the core apps and utilities. Or at least move them to a separate area that doesn’t count towards most used apps.

But it’s worth keeping the iLife and iWork apps that are not included with an OS purchase.

Yes. Please get rid of the apps that ship with Mac OS X. To me it appears they do little more than pollute your site.

And I think you should also consider getting rid of any application from Apple. Everyone knows about their apps. Most people run their apps.

Keep them!

There are quite a few people switching to Macs right now, and it’s very useful for them to see which apps are truly useful. I spend a lot of time on IGN.com’s Mac boards, and you’d be surprised how many people skip over the stuff that came with their Mac. Best I can figure is they’re used to getting crap software that comes with their PCs and they’re just in the habit of removing it.

Take Preview for example: great for converting between image formats, yet a lot of people still wonder how they can save their screenshots as JPEGs easily. Automator is a big one that a lot of people don’t see the value of. And Safari has a ton of competition… It’s quite useful to see what browsers Mac users prefer, and it’s just unfair (and kind of useless) to exclude Safari. Same thing with Mail.

If some people really don’t want to see them, I’d make it an option. You could either have a single option to ignore Apple’s apps, or have some sort of “ignore” option for every app.

Great idea for a site by the way, keep up the good work! The one other thing I’d really like to see is a more obvious “more information” link. If you drill down I see there’s a developer link, but it’s not obvious (I wanted more information about the app, not the developer) and it’d be really nice to have that right on the main listing pages.

Please remove them, its just a pollution of your system. Although the majority seems to be in favor of keeping them one can only hope that you know better.

In my opinion they are a great harm to your website. Since they are installed per default its not possible to compare them to other apps, and thus they are hurting the whole iUseThis idea - who isn’t using the finder, itunes or safari?

And for someone’s argument that he didn’t discover digital color meter until he saw it on this site I feel that helping people double-click the Utilities folder and browsing it might be outside the scope of this website. Other features of yours, such as the icon, downloadlink, developerpage, screenshots and most not-yet-implemented features one can think of are completely useless for all OS X bundled apps.

Also, please release some guidelines and add some moderators, this is an example of something that should be removed: http://osx.iusethis.com/app/meebo

Wow. Amazing amount of feedback. Thanks a bunch everybody. There seems to be good arguments going both ways, and we’ll try to work out a solution that works for everybody. Once they are registered, there won’t be a lot of updates to these apps, so they won’t show up in the new lists much longer. For now, I’ve given them a terminal weight for the hotness generation.

I’d recommend to not only keep the core applications but to make sure they’re in the database to begin with.

At the end of the day, this depends on what you want your site to do. If your aim is anything of what I consider it do be, i.e. something that lets you answer questions like Terminal or xterm, TextEdit or MS Word, Finder or PathFinder, iChat or Adium … and lets people explore the world of similar or more powerful applications when coming from the Apple provided applications, the answer to your question should be be quite clear.

But as I’m not sure what your aims for the site are, things may look quite different from your point of view.

Ultimately I think it comes down to what you see the purpose of the site as being…if it’s just a pretty, (insert tech buzzword for DHTML) version of MacUpdate or VersionTracker (or just a listing of thrid-party apps), then by all means remove them. However, if you see the site as having some value as a site where a user can find out which apps are the top apps in their field and their alternatives based on user usage, ratings, and reviews, then the Core apps must stay.

According to some surveys, over 30% of Mac users don’t use Safari. It would be great to see how many I Use This users use Safari, and how many use Safari as one of multiple browsers, and so forth. Without Safari, you can’t do that. While Apple’s apps are really great out-of-the-box apps, they also face strong competition from third-party apps (what a great software ecosystem!), and the value of this site would be greatly diminished without the presence of Core apps. (In my case, I think the only Apple/Core apps I actually use—and really actually use, not just interact with, in the case of the Finder—regularly are iPhoto, Stickies, and the Finder.)

I think that if it’s an app that’s in the Applications folder on any Mac, it’s fair game. Similarly, if there’s a reasonable third-party alternative to a Core app, that Core should also be listed (thereby making an argument for BOMArchiveHelper, Terminal.app, and a couple of other things in Utilities and CoreServices). The only Core app I can reasonably see an argument for special-casing for removal is the Finder, but there are users who avoid using it to do anything and even some who launch PathFinder and then force quit the Finder!

If the problem is that all the new users adding Safari to their apps lists is disrupting the “Hot Apps” list, then fix the “Hot Apps” list instead of removing Safari (although that also raises the question of what exactly is the “Hot Apps” list supposed to be? To me that means Safari’s a pretty popular app, my love for Camino notwithstanding ;) The “Hot Apps” list issue really seems like one of those hard cases where there are strong arguments for both sides, people are evenly divided, and a user pref is actually warranted…).

I, for one, hope this site turns into something like that envisioned in the earthlingsoft blog post (how I found this site, btw), and removing Core apps is not the way to get there.

I think they should stay. They have to compete for users with some great thrid party software so it’s only fair to give ‘em a fighting chance! :)

I think the core apps should stay, but have their own category or show up in an alternate color (like grey). There are many different and useful core apps that people just may not know about - I know I’ve discovered one or two using i use this.

I think core apps should stay. As a newbie mac-er (2 wks) I use a lot of the built in apps. I find myself looking up those apps on the site and going through their categories and finding things that people use more. I think its a great way to find the apps you currently use and those that you COULD use for better functionality.

I don’t think the core apps should be removed. Yes, we all know about iTunes. However, having these ubiquitous baseline apps helps provide a general baseline. Sure, 200 people use alternative-music-player-x, but what does that mean? Knowing that 2000 are using iTunes puts it in perspective. I know how much I like iTunes, I know how easy it is not to replace, so if 1/10 ppl have bothered to make the switch, it means something.

Also, it adds a feeling of completeness and legitimacy for people who may have just showed up at the site. ‘No-one even uses iTunes here? What fools!!’ For those of us taking part in the Beta, such concerns are less likely to be a big deal as we can develop an overall feel over time. But anyone coming in for a one stop search will find those core apps a convenient benchmark, with very little cost.

Marking them as special somehow as has been suggested, however, would be a good idea.

I think you should not remove any App. It does not mater where the app comes from, core or not, if it’s an App, it should be on iusethis.

Just want to put in my vote that core apps should absolutely stay — for a number of reasons, many of which have been touched upon.

My reasons?

1. Being able to link to core apps within IUT and say “Use Adium instead of -link to- iChat”.
2. Level playing field — some core apps are good, some aren’t. IUT scoring helps to point out hidden gems (Like Core Image Fun House)
3. What difference does it really make? Over time core apps will be treated just like other apps. Plus, I currently subscribe to MacUpdate and VersionTracker — it’d be nice if I could subscribe to IUT and get updates on all apps, including those in core.

It’s not a huge deal, but I do think that people will wonder why they’re not in there and will keep trying to add them back, especially in the case of iTunes, which is not, I’m sorry to say, a no-brainer. It’s more about me expressing a complete picture of what I use — whether it’s obvious or not — and adding iTunes to that list, for me, is just as valid as adding Photoshop or 1001.

Definitely leave them in, for the reasons that others have mentioned. We want to know what is the best in each category. That may or may not be a core app. Perhaps mark them as core apps, and then have an option to ignore core apps if they are bothering some people.

Keep the core apps, because then people will remember  what they use and can add them.  Apple apps are special, too! :)

Keep the core apps in their own section and add a section for widgets. I’ve got Dashboard turned off, so the lengthy widget lists are no interest to me at all…

I, too, think that core apps should stay. But they should either stay in some kind of separate category, or there should be a “Do Not Include Core OS Apps” switch (accessible via user prefs/profile) for all the statistics on the site, so that we won’t see iTunes everywhere.

If the app doesn’t have a standalone installer that Apple makes available outside the OS install CDs, it shouldn’t be listed in the database. Apps that would fall in to this category would be Mail, Preview, Image Capture, etc. An app like “X11” is core, but it is also a stand alone app.

Definitely keep them.

Keep core apps in. Just don’t show apps that we’ve already marked as using and loving. I use them. I know how awesome they are. Just show me users that mostly agree and show me the apps they use that I don’t. That’s why I’m here.

Donald said, “OK, one more thing: I don’t think built-in apps should be able to qualify as “hot”.”

This was my thought as well. Keep them on the site, but exclude them from the “Hot Apps” box and page.

I say keep them in, if someone makes an app that’s better then a built in app we already know about and use, I’d like to be able to find it.

I would keep the core apps - they group in with equivlents by 3rd party. For example its good to know someone else has made a replacement/better version of TextEdit. People can look for core apps by name then see what replacements are available.

Either separate out the Core apps, or remove them, since everyone has them already.

I would leave them in, but tag them as “bundled” or “built-in” or something so that they stay out of the hot list and don’t screw up statistics for other apps.

Jeff said: ” Donald said, “OK, one more thing: I don’t think built-in apps should be able to qualify as “hot”.” This was my thought as well. Keep them on the site, but exclude them from the “Hot Apps” box and page.”

Ok, but then an app might be listed as “hot” even though it’s core-app equivalent was more well-used. That doesn’t make sense to me.

The real issue is to make it clear that you are supposed to list only the apps that you actually USE, not the apps that you have on your computer. I’ve interpreted that to mean, “apps that I use relatively regularly.” So, maybe this is something that needs to be made obvious in the instructions; just because you have Safari, etc., on your computer, doesn’t mean that you should say that you are using it. In fact, I keep thinking it might be useful to have 3 categories: 1) use regularly, 2) use occasionally, 3) never use.

Let them stay.. otherwise it will give a wrong view in whats being used and what not, but i agree that there should be a more detailed system.. Like most downloaded, most viewed, …

The best suggestion so far is to keep them but make it an option (in a Preferences section) to show them or not. If you choose to hide the core apps, there won’t be any trace of them except when asking for them explicitly (i.e. through direct URL). That way everyone gets it their way.

I agree with Weldon: leave the core apps in, but mark them as included with OS X, maybe this is a part of the License choice when adding an app. In the list they should probably get a badge, and maybe even a special listing, or the ability to filter them.

I vote for leaving them in. This isn’t “ihavethis”, it’s “iusethis”, and which included apps people actually use as opposed to replacing or ignoring is useful information.

That leads to a feature request I’ve been mulling over: I’d love to specify “I prefer this” and build a set of connections between apps, so when reading about one app I can learn what other apps people have found to meet similar needs.

Leaving them on is a good idea. Just because Safari is a Core App doesn’t mean it’s used by everyone, same with AppleWorks, iTunes. There ARE iTunes substitutes.

Just a simple casting of vote. I would prefer to see them stay as not everyone uses the core apps. It would be good to see who uses them and who doesn’t.

I think core apps should be here, but a feature to filter them out for those who dont’t want to see them could been nice.

I think it’s a good idea to leave the core apps included. It’s interesting to see what core apps get used the most (obviously iTunes is leading the pack, but it’s fun to see what the #2, #3, #4 most used core apps are). Also, it just makes the list feel complete. To go to a page and say, this is all the software I use but for my primary browser, email client, IM client, music and picture programs, etc. left out just seems very much incomplete.

I say leave them in.

Don’t remove core apps. For many of us, these are our most-used programs! And it’s interesting to see who’s using core apps versus 3rd party replacements.

No! It is interesting to see what core apps people use.

If you must, then split the site with tabs ( or pop-up menu filters! ) one side for core apps ( and how are these to be defined…? ) and one side for Third Party.

But where to stop…? More splits for “free,” “donate,” “commercial,” “freefor30days,” “freebutlimited,” “opensource,” etcetera?

Here is a wacky idea: All “shareware” orwhatever apps could have a common preference that would send stats on usage to iusethis.com. Or an app could keep track of this for all user-defined apps, sorta likea last.fm ( http://www.last.fm/user/Thiffany/ ) for apps!

winks, Thiff

First off, awesome website. Love it. The rss feed is great. Second - I used to think all the core apps should go - but now I adamantly think they should stay. I mean, whats the big deal with leaving them anyway. At first, it was a bit lame cuz there weren’t many other programs on the site, but now its just a good addition to demonstrate the total variety of apps one can us on osx!

So that the information at this site teaches as well as it shows the latest in special gizmos I hope the site will continue to reveal what people use. Please continue to use care in designing this site as the “I use…” site. Include core applications.

What is unique about “iusethis” is that it is not merely advertising news of what is newly available and presenting download ratings indicating interest and acceptability of these new 3rd-party apps. But, what users at any level of Mac experience can find at the “iusethis” site is the community’s wisdom from their experience in working with all applications. Because all applications (including Mac Core Applications) are rated along with the special new and modiified tools, we all get a view into the true “use” rating. That tells me (teaches me), what is worth considering to rely on in software tools for my own work flow.

I think the none optional core apps should be removed. Finder, etc.

Nope, keep it in! I really like to see them all listed! :)

I agree with the option idea.

While certain apps— for example iTunes, X11, address book —are sort of defaults, other core applications like Safari and iChat have “competition” with Firefox and Adium respectively. Thus, when one is trying to compare the two, seeing the OSX default (core app) is necessary. But, we don’t really need to see iTunes because there is no other app to compare it with, and if you use the iTMS, then its your only option.

I think they should stay. If only that one extra person finding out about, say, Terminal, is always a good thing.

Hide/show core apps as a preference.

Get rid of em.

Stay.

Some of the apps that ship with OS X are best in class. I have a lot of choices in mail clients, yet I use Mail. I have a lot of choices in web browsers, yet I use Safari. But when it comes to instant messaging, I prefer adium. I use both QuickTime and VLC. The only applications which should maybe be removed are those who’s use cannot be reasonably avoided like System Preferences, Internet Connect, Finder (Although Finder can be replaced, too). I don’t think I need to put on the site that WindowServer is my #1 most used app.

Mac users have a lot of choice about what to use. This site isn’t called www.iHaveThisInstalledOnMyHardDrive.com, its iUseThis and if we use an application that happens to come with the computer, we should still be able to post about it. Also, where are you going to draw the line? XCode is included, X11 is included, QuartzComposer is included, but they’re all optional installs.

Anyways if somebody wants to put “Calculator” on their list of favorite apps, more power to them.

-Xy

I’m late to the party, but I just want to put in my vote to keep the core apps. There’re good arguments both ways but I think what makes the decision obvious (to me) is this earlier comment:

This isn’t “ihavethis”, it’s “iusethis”

I think we should keep the core apps but make it clear that they are core apps. Rather than having a seperate section, this could instead be done by having their names in red instead of black for instance. That way it’s immediately obvious that they are “core”, but doesn’t remove them somewhere else.

By core apps I take that to mean all apps that come (or have previously come) pre-installed with any version of osx. So Graphic Convertor would be in (Powerbooks with Tiger) and so would iWeb (new intel macs).

Or you could further subdivide it…..BLUE=apps included with the OS or pre-installed and made by apple

ORANGE=apps pre-installed but made by 3rd parties on behalf of apple that you then get a license for by virtue of owning a new mac

BLACK- all other apps that either don’t come with the OS/hardware regardless of who makes them (eg, aperture, photoshop etc)